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Interview:
Albert Ellis on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy
LATA K. M cGINN
Dr. Albert Ellis is the Founder and President of the Institute of Rational Emotive Therapy in New York City. He began the development of rational- emotive therapy in 1955. He has been the recipient of the Distinguished Professional Contributions to Knowledge Award from the American Psycho logical Association and the Professional Development Award from the Ameri can Counseling Association. He is due to receive the Outstanding Clinical Contribution Award from the Association for the Advancement of Behavior Therapy this fall. He is the author of more than 700 academic papers and more than 50 books.
Perhaps we could start with having you summarize the tenets o f Rational Emotive Therapy, or Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, as it is now called, for readers who may not be familiar with it Well, Rational Emotive Therapy, called Rational Emotional Behavior Therapy since 1993 (REBT), says that all people are born with self- defeating tendencies. When something goes against their goals, values or desires, usually failure, rejection, etc., they have a choice of feeling healthier emotions such as feeling sorry, disappointed, frustrated which encourage you to go back and change the adversity you face. Or humans have a choice of making themselves terrified, panicked, depressed, self-pitying, self- doubting, etc. Which emotion they choose mainly depends on their belief systems. Not their goals and values but what they tell themselves when those goals and values are thwarted or blocked. And they have a rational set of beliefs or what we call 'preferences/ rational, meaning self-helping beliefs, such as
“I don’t like what is going on; I wish it weren’t so, how annoyingT; let’s see
what I can do about i t ” Or humans very frequently pick irrational beliefs or
what we call 'demands,’ such as “because I don’t like what is going on, it
absolutely should not exist, it must not be, I can’t stand it, it’s horrible, I think
YU kill myself, etc. ”
^Reprinted from “Psychological Health,” Winter 1996, 1 (1), 8-10. By permission of National Academy of Psychotherapy. A m e r ic a n J o u r n a l o f P s y c h o t h e r a p y , Vol. 51 , No. 3, Summer 1997
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There are only three basic demands that lead to most of what we call
neurotic behavior. One is, “I must do well and be loved by people or I am no
good r” which leads to depression, terror, self-doubting, feelings of inad
equacy, etc. Two, “You people absolutely must treat me kindly , nobly, and
considerately, or you are worthless, you are no good, ” and that creates anger,
rage, wars, genocide, etc. And three, “ conditions under which I live in the
environment must absolutely be better than they are, they must give me
exactly what I want, and never really deprive me,” and then it is “horrible,
terrible, and awful” when conditions are not the way they must be.
REBT is more philosophical than the other therapies because you change your basic outlook, philosophy and give up those musts, shoulds,
oughts, and demands and just go back to having preferences. “ I would like
to do well but I never have to; it would be great if you treat me kindly but you
obviously don't have to” and if you do, then you would rarely make yourself
neurotic. And if people use a whole variety of cognitive, emotive, and behavioral techniques which REBT shows them how to use, then by working very hard against their upbringing and their biology, they could make themselves significantly less disturbed. So these, very briefly, are some of the main aspects of REBT which was the first of the major cognitive behavioral therapies since I created it in 1955 and then about ten years later Aaron Beck came along and Donald Meichenbaum, and then William Blasser and others who have somewhat similar systems. But they don’t emphasize the musts, the shoulds, and the oughts as much as we do. They go after irrational beliefs but they often miss
the core beliefs, “I must do well, you must treat me well, and things must be
easy. ”
So could you describe some o f the techniques that are used in REBT? The main things in REBT are the “ABCs.” You start with ‘G ’ or the
goals (to do well, to get along with people, to enjoy yourself). All humans
who survive have goals, values, desires, part of which again are innate and part of which are learned through your parents, your culture. Then 'A is adversity or activating events that blocks or thwarts your goals. Έ ’ is what you tell yourself about it, it s your belief system, both the
healthy, rational belief system, preferences, and goals (“I don’t like it, I wish
it weren’t so”) and the unhealthy, irrational belief system, demands, oughts,
musts, shoulds {“therefore it shouldn’t exist, I know the right way, you know
the wrong way and you should die”).
‘C’ is the emotional and behavioral consequence which is the actual
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What led you to develop the theory and therapy? At first I was a pretty active-directive therapist when I got my MA degree in 1943 because I had done a lot of research on sex, love and marriage and sex therapy has been sort of cognitive behavioral since the early part of the century. But then I thought that psychoanalysis was deeper, more intensive, so I got analyzed and practiced psychoanalysis for 6 years. But then I found that my clients were often worse rather than better. So, in 1953, I stopped calling myself a psychoanalyst and did a survey of the scores of therapy techniques and took the best of them. I felt that many therapies were woefully ineffective so I formulated REBT in 1955 with the goal of making therapy more efficient. At that time there was little behavioral therapy, Skinnerian and classical behavioral therapy, and there were lots of emotive therapies, Fritz Peris and others, but they tended to directly enhance feelings without distinguishing between unhealthy and healthy feelings. The purpose was to make therapy more efficient, profound and to get to the basic source of human disturbance. We wanted people to work hard rationally, emotionally, and behaviorally against the tendency to be destruc tive and to go back to their constructive tendencies which they also have and to finally lead a more self-fulfilling and happier life.
What were your influences at the time? My main influences were philosophical. I happened to have a hobby of philosophy since the age of 16. There were some cognitive influences but I really got my main theory that people largely upset themselves, from ancient philosophers, some of the Asians, but mainly from the Greeks and Romans.
You are one o f the pioneering psychotherapy developers. As such, your career has been filled with many accolades and accomplishments. When you look back, are there any disappointments in your career? Is there anything you wished you had or had not done, or perhaps done something differently? Yes, lot of things. For example, I was one of the first to use so-called improper language in public which turned a great many people off. I am not sure whether it does more harm than good. And lots of times I have argued with people, told them that they are wrong and created enemies.
Perhaps if I had been more tactful... (smiled).
Another thing that never worked out is research. We founded this institute as a training institute in 1968 and we pushed for our trainees to do
Interview: Albert Ellis on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy
research. We had several directors of research. All of them have fallen down on the job and performed miserably and produced very little research. We also spent thousands of dollars trying to get our people here to do some basic research in REBT, and theyVe done some, but relatively little, while other people have done better in colleges and universities. And other cognitive behavioral therapists such as Aaron Beck, Donald Meichenbaum have done a lot. But I regret that I was never able to induce our people to do much better and much more basic research. And I have done lots of other things that I regret but I never upset myself about those things. They’re just regrets, sorrows, disappointments, frustrations. I made mistakes, I am a fallible human who has made mistakes. Too bad. But I never put myself down for making these errors.
What do you personally consider to be the greatest satisfactions o f your career? Well, I have gotten many awards. I have received the major awards from the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Associa tion, and will now be getting an award from the Association for the Advancement of Behavior Therapy. I am probably the only one who received all three. So that is nice. And I have given workshops and trained therapists all over the world. So I have done many things that I enjoy and that I think have been helpful. Plus, I probably see more clients than any therapist in the world.
How many clients do you see? Well, every week I have four groups, so that is 40 people right there. And then I see 50 other people individually. And I have been doing this since the 1940s. I know few therapists who have seen more clients than I have over the years. I also do workshops every Friday. For the last thirty-one years, I have interviewed people in public every Friday night that I am in New York. I have a regular live session with two people and then I throw it open to the audience. Live REBT. And I teach therapy that way to the public. And I do other workshops as well, so I have helped innumerable people that way. I have also written over 50 books, over 700 articles, made 150 cassettes, mostly on REBT. I have received thousands of letters from people who were helped by REBT all over the world. So my influence has been very wide and strong. Now that doesn’t mean I have always done good. I am sure my detractors would say that I have even done harm. But I like my accomplishments. But, I don’t think that makes me a good person. I am
Interview: Albert Ellis on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy
my surprise that in just a few informal sessions, I could help them on their sex, love and marriage problems and tell them what they were doing wrong and show them what to do. And I enjoyed that, so then at the age of 2 8 , went back to school and got my Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from Teacher’s College, Columbia University.
What projects are you involved in currendy?
Well, I am currently revising some of my very popular books. Guide to
Rational Living which sold over a million and a quarter copies when it first
came out in 1961 is now being revised for the third edition. I am also
revising another book that first came out in 1977 titled, Anger: How to hive
With it and Without it. I am also revising a book for practitioners of therapy,
called The Practice of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy which is also
coming out soon. Finally, I am writing another book, titled Rational
Emotive Behavior Therapy Applied to Stress Counseling, which is in press
and will be out soon. Besides these projects, I am still continuing to write other articles and books.
The Geld o f mental health has changed immensely since you began your career. Many of the changes are being dictated by economic forces and there is tremendous anxiety among fledgling therapists. What advice, if any, do you have for psychotherapists just beginning their career? It is not clear how things will be but if they continue as they are at the present time, then very few psychotherapists will be able to have a private practice. Even our institute has seen a decline in numbers, not seriously, but a slight decline and it has to do with these HMOs and the fact that people don’t have personal insurance which they used to have years ago. So if there is no change in the system and these HMOs continue, then psychothera pists will have a difficult time keeping up a decent practice and a lot of them will be forced to work for clinics or HMOs directly or some other way which is not as satisfying as working independently and being able to negotiate directly with clients. At the moment things don’t look great for the independent practitioner.
For our professional readers, how would one go about obtaining training in REBT? We have several training programs here and throughout the country and all over the world. At the highest level, we offer one-year internships and two-year fellowships where the trainees attend workshops, receive supervi sion, and treat patients that we provide for them. We only take about ten
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trainees a year. Then we have our briefer training programs where we start with 3-day workshops and show them how to do REBT and then follow it up with advanced practicums where they bring in clinical tapes and receive supervision. So there are lots of training opportunities. People can also receive training and continuing education credits through the mail by sending for our cassettes and then sending us their clinical tapes.
For consumers, when should they consider treatment with REBT? And how would they go about obtaining treatment with a therapist trained in REBT? Consumers can write or call our toll-free number to receive the number of a REBT therapist in their area. We have a large referral sheet of therapists trained in REBT. I also do phone sessions with people who live outside the NYC area and so do other therapists. People who live in the New York area can call and directly make an appointment with someone at the institute or request a free catalog to see what programs we offer.
How do you think you have personally beneGted from REBT? You touched on that a little bit earlier. Do you apply it to yourself? I benefited by devising some of the therapy and practices of REBT from reading and applying philosophy from the age of 16 onward. By age 1 9 , got myself over some of my worst fears, such as a fear of public speaking and of encountering new women. I used what would later become the essence of REBT to overcome my anxiety, fearfulness and hesitation and did very well. Now I am one of the best public speakers in the field and have no social anxiety any more.
For more information contact: Institute for Rational Emotive Behavior
Therapy, 45 Easy 65th Street, New York, N Y 10021-6593, (212) 535 0822 or
(800) 323IRET (4738), Fax: (212) 249 3582, web address: http://www.iret.or
